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Yellow stain in Red Spruce top
http://www-.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=3338		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  arvey [ Mon Sep 26, 2005 3:51 pm ]
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I recvently purchased some AA grade Red Spruce tops and after Joining and Thickness sanding one of the tops I discovered some yellow stains in the top which I am trying to figure out the cause and how to remove it. The stain wasn't noticable untill after I joined the Top and thickness sanded. It is a very faint stain about the colour of a yellow highlighter pen. the stains run with the grain and are found in both sides of the book match and go right through the wood. Very faint but will probably really come out with the finish. The ends of this top weren't sealed but the colour is about the same as some yellow end sealer I have seen used. Here are a couple of pics, hard to see it but may give an idea



Author:  Shane Neifer [ Mon Sep 26, 2005 4:45 pm ]
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Don't know if I should say this because I hope I am wrong, but I guess I amsaying it! In the lower parts of some of the trees I harvest, especailly the larger ones, there is sometimes rot. When it is just starting it will show as a 'stain'. I don't process these sections but I do buck and split until I see that it is no longer there. So, is this area any softer than the rest of the top? Just press into the top (in an area that is outside the guitar pattern) with your thumb nail to see if there is noticable difference in density between the white and the yellow areas, if not then you probably don't have a structural problem, if you do then you probably do! Otherwise it is just a cool lookin' top.

Shane
Author:  arvey [ Mon Sep 26, 2005 5:09 pm ]
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No it looks and feels structurally sound. There is a little greying outside the pattern area but again that is sound as well. Some might say it will look cool but to me it looks like a kid used a highlighter on it. At the same time If I use this top for a size 5 guitar I will be cutting out all the wide grain and getting just the good stuff. Would be like a AAA top then.
Author:  Shane Neifer [ Mon Sep 26, 2005 5:14 pm ]
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It sounds like you have a 'safe' solution. Man you're up late, Man I'm up late and way west of you!!

Gotta write a letter to Forestry and hit the rack. Good luck with that top Richard.

Shane
Author:  Tim McKnight [ Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:33 pm ]
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Think sunburst or you can give it a couple coats of shellac to tone the stains down a bit. Red Spruce is known for the brownish and yellow streaks so it is expected to be present in most sets.
Author:  tippie53 [ Mon Sep 26, 2005 11:41 pm ]
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   I use alot of redspruce. This is what the tree does. I was told it has to do with the minerals in the soil. If a tree is dead the stain is often a grayish color .
    There is nothing wrong with that top. You got a AA. The higher grades are AAA and AAAA. The higher grades have less flaws and tighter graining. While it may be a visual flaw it isn't serious and it will all go away in a few years as the tops age
john hall
Author:  arvey [ Tue Sep 27, 2005 12:30 am ]
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No question that structurally there is nothing wrong with this top, for an AA grade it is great,nice and stiff (easily as stiff as my ussual AAA) and great tap tone. Ussually I use AAA or Master Grade for my Red spruce tops. This is my first time buying AA and it was from a different supplier than I usually use. There is some of the grayish stain as well which I have seen before, especially in salvaged sitka it is this yellow streaking that is different and I haven't seen before. Unless I either use this top for a smaller guitar like a size five (lower bout 11.5") or darken it a lot it will show through and this doesn't look natural at all. As I said this looks like a kid took highlighter to it. I was looking at s few other tops from this supplier and one was end seled with a yellow sealer and the colour is exactly like the stain so I think it is just that some end sealer has wicked up into the wood. Probably nothing to do but set it asside for use on another guitar. No matter as it will still be used.
Author:  Brock Poling [ Tue Sep 27, 2005 2:30 am ]
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you know... everyone has their idea of aesthetics....

but one thing that I really think looks nice is a black top on a mahogany body. John Montelone has a mandolin like this and it is really sweet (he used really nice quilted mahogany).

So if it is good and stiff I don't see any reason why you can't use it and still build a beautiful guitar. You just might need to stray off the path a little.

Author:  CarltonM [ Tue Sep 27, 2005 3:23 am ]
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Richard,

To me, it looks like "character," rather than a flaw. Try wetting a half with mineral spirits to get an idea of what it will look like under finish. Or, wipe it with a coat of amber or garnet shellac for a preview. You might like it!
Author:  old man [ Tue Sep 27, 2005 4:04 am ]
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Was this cut from the part of the tree that is about dog high?      Just a thought.


Ron
Author:  spruce [ Tue Sep 27, 2005 7:39 am ]
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" I use alot of redspruce. This is what the tree does. I was told it has to
do with the minerals in the soil."

That looks like fungal stain in the sapwood, with your bookmatch
reversed from
what it "should" be....
Your sapwood is usually oriented in the center of the top, and not the
outside as your top is oriented...
But there's no hard-and-fast rule that says that you can't do it the other
way around, either...

The staining was caused by not milling the log right away after felling the
tree...
I'm guessing it sat around for maybe 2-4 months or so, or was possibly a
windfall that sat around for a winter in the woods....
If it sat around any longer or was standing-dead, insect damage (in the
sapwood only) would most likely be the next thing you'd see.

Try a solution of hydrogen peroxide 35%.
This is industrial grade stuff, and can be hard to find in small quantities.

Try it on the part of the top outside your pattern before commiting to
doing the whole top...

That should even out the coloration in the top...

Luck!
Author:  arvey [ Tue Sep 27, 2005 12:21 pm ]
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I actually often orientate my Tops this way as I like the look and the tone I get like this. As well, due to gray staining in parts of the wood this is how this piece has to be orrientated. I notice that the yellow seems to be slowly getting lighter in the sunlight. This might ecplain why it wasn't noticable untill after I thicknessed it. Maybe the sunlight is bleaching this out.
Author:  tippie53 [ Wed Sep 28, 2005 2:43 am ]
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I have to agree you are correct. I looked alot closer. Forgive my ignorance. Without touching it ,it is difficult.
   It appears that the streaks are in the sap wood . Thanks for the education
john hall
Author:  arvey [ Tue Oct 04, 2005 4:34 am ]
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Just to update everyone. After leaving this top in the sun the yellow has totally disapeared. 3 days one side and then flipped it the n three days that side and it is white as can be. Very nice quality top now that the yellow is gone. For an AA top I am very impressed with this top, really stiff and tight grain, now that the yellow is gone this is more like an AAA top. I am going to use it on a guitar that I am currently building where the guy ordered an AAA Top. Even though the supplier didn't grade it that high, I think it qualifies as such. As I said before it is as stiff as the Master grade tops I have been buying from another supplier.
Author:  Colonial Tonwds [ Tue Oct 04, 2005 10:27 am ]
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Richard,
Glad you liked the top and it worked out--isn't mother nature great!! Let me know if you need anymore tops.
Thanks,
Stephen C. Roberson
www.colonialtonewoods.comColonial Tonwds38629.8121064815
Author:  arvey [ Tue Oct 04, 2005 2:08 pm ]
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Not needing anymore red spruce right now as it is an upgrade for my guitars. Your spruce is nice and stiff as I have said. It is unfortunate that so many people think that good wood has to have tight uniform grain and colour.   People would pass up wood like this that will give a great sounding guitar for wood that will cost more and probably not sound as nice. Mother Nature is interesting all right. I still wonder what the yellow streaks were as they just seemed to fade so. Wouldn't have thought that fungal stain would have disapeared so fast but Who knows.
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